"You should really try to know the first thing before you pull such claims out of wherever."

Sigh. Another armchair economist trying to extrapolate history.

You are re-defining all societies in terms of our modern idea of government to push some libertarian view. Yes, you are correct, societies had money before there was a modern elected government with 3 branches. That doesn't mean there weren't rules, there weren't concepts like enforcement of contracts, like debt and how to 'sue' over recovering debt'.

You can't go back in history to when we were tribal, say 'look we didn't need a government', and then extrapolate that to todays world and promote anarchy.

Money before 'central government'? Central to what? My tribe? You are just re-defining what a government is. You are going back to when we were exchanging shiny bits of shell.

Something for your birthday https://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290

There is no higher authority than that of a sovereign. The government is a sovereign entity which forces use of its currency and taxation upon its subjects in order to compel the procurement of goods and services for its courts, military, and police forces from which it derives actual power. More info in Debt: The First 5,000 Years https://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290

Also, Debt: The First 5,000 Years covers the religious origins of debt, money, markets, capital, value, values, etc.

https://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290

My TLDR for this thread: Capitalism is very old. Calvinists and Smith's views towards money, debt, etc. had many precedents. George Gilder's tortured rationalization that God endorses usury is probably unprecedented. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Gilder#Wealth_and_Pover...

For context, David Graeber is an anarchist anthropologist who has written extensively about economics. His two best-known works on the subject:

- https://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290/

- https://www.amazon.com/Bullshit-Jobs-Theory-David-Graeber/dp...

His views are surely influenced by his a-priori politics, but I've found his ideas thought-provoking to say the least.

This will explain the opposite: https://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290

Last evening while we were out to beers, a friend recommended me a book apparently reviewing precisely this history: https://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290

The Marxist hidden in me says

* listen to Richard Wolff's views on Puerto Rico http://www.rdwolff.com/tags/puerto_rico

* listen to David Graeber https://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290

> a tension emerges in Florentine, and indeed in European, historiography between economic historians and the work of social and political historians

This reminds me of the competing narratives from economists versus anthropologists mentioned in Debt: The First 5000 years [0]. In it, the author argues that the economists' narrative is really a creation-myth (or perhaps an evolution-myth) for modern capitalism, rather than an accurate view of the different strategies humans have used in different circumstances.

[0]: http://www.amazon.com/Debt-The-First-000-Years/dp/1612191290

No, it wouldn't. Categorically.

If everyone repaid debts, then lending money wouldn't require interest. Interest expresses the danger that money may not be repaid as, for example, during bankruptcy proceedings.

Debt forgiveness has existed since the dawn of money. See [1] for more information.

[1] http://www.amazon.com/Debt-The-First-000-Years/dp/1612191290

Terrible, terrible arrangement of ads alongside, and hilarious chart in article graphic.

Read this instead.

[http://www.amazon.com/Debt-The-First-000-Years/dp/1612191290]

For Reference:

David Graeber's original article: http://www.strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/

David Graeber's Book, "Debt: The First 5,000 Years": http://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290/

Fiat (credit) came first. As trust in central authorities broke down, barter & convertible currencies came into vogue.

A good book on the subject: http://www.amazon.com/Debt-The-First-000-Years/dp/1612191290